On the question how long she works with Adriaan Verstijnen, Tini Mathot doesn't have to think long: exactly twenty years. Together they form a duo which is responsible for several successful record- and CD-productions and which also takes care for all of the recordings of the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. On top of that Tini Mathot is since many years Ton Koopmans wife: this can definitely be called a solid team. With great pleasure the two remember how it all started.
TM: Adriaan has worked with Ton for some time before I joined as a recording supervisor, although it was not called that way in those times. We worked rather primitive and on all these early records it states quite romantic "with thanks to Tini". But soon it became clear that things had to be done in a more professional way. Teamwork is obviously a keystone for Tini and Adriaan.
TM: I do strongly believe in teamwork. I know what Adriaan is talking about and Adriaan knows what I'm talking about. I think this can be heard in our recordings. I always recognize our records and that's not only because Adriaan records so well, but also because you edit these recordings in a certain way.
The editing is very important because you can easily over-edit. It's always possible to cut and paste a few notes, but to let flow a piece beautifully musical is a different story. If Adriaan adds a written comment like "is this realy what is meant here?", then I'm always alerted.
How is the division of tasks exactly between to two of you?
AV: During the recordings I'm responsible for the technology. For me a day of recording looks something like this: early in the morning I load my car with all kind of complicated equipment, cables and stuff, drive for example to the Waalse Kerk (church) in Amsterdam, and build a control room with speakers, recordingequipment and a mixingtable, then I install tripods and microphones and make a balance when the orchestra sits down. At that moment Tini goes into action.
TM: When watching this balance I constantly check that what comes on the tape is the same as what is laid down in the scores and what the expectations of the conductor are. This is absolutely related to eachother. After that, for me the real work gets started, because I have to take care that I collect enough material within a limited amount of time. I lead them in such a way through the recording that I can make a nice assembly and a good product in the end.
AV: Tini notes down what is good or bad and during the recordingsessions she actually makes a kind of base-mounting already, so that I, when we're through with recording, can mount all the collected good material. When this is finished Tini gets copy's of this material and she will listen to the result in the most objective way as possible, tries to determine what is insufficient and tracks down recorded material to correct these minuses.
Is Ton involved in this stage of the process ?
TM: Not yet. Untill this moment I don't want anybody to interfere with what I'm doing. Musicians always work with "the perfect thing". I only let them listen to the stage when I got the feeling: now I've done everything I can, and from that moment on I like it when someone from the musicians tells me: "I don't like this or that part". This is the only moment when Ton and I argue or quarrel. That leaves me with two choices: either I try to convince him that he's hearing ghosts or I make the changes because sometimes he's awfully right. We noticed that the tighter the collaboration is, the lesser the corrections from part of the director will be. This is a matter of confidence.
Did the situation ever occur during the Bach-canatataproject that you both were very satisfied with the result in contrary to Ton ? Or the other way round ?
TM: No. This never happens.
AV: This is also due to the fact that there is lots of communication during the recordingsessions so we won't have any surprises afterwards. Ton knows exactly what happened during a session. You can't get an A always for everything so you know that this time it will only be a B. Ton will never say: "This is disappointing".
TM: But Ton can be very exacting, even though it's getting better nowadays. This is probably because we are doing a better job now. The three of us have gone through a kind of development. I have never experienced Ton to be dissatisfied with our results, of course he had some remarks, but I was never very much. On a three-cd-box with Bach-cantatas he wants to have corrected a 15 things. In fact most of the times it's the other way round. We are quite critical of ouselves. We always say: this can be done even better next time.
AV: I always call it "looking for the philosopher's stone." Transforming lead into gold. So that will not work. There's nothing as beautiful as walking into a church where a choir is singing. Than you say: Wow!! It's our challenge to get that sound out of these two average livingroomspeakers. This is a lost battle from the beginning. But you keep on fighting to get it done. Result: you're always unsatisfied.
Did you learn anything in the past years? Did you do things earlier which you wouldn't do no more?
TM: Did we learn? We don't do anything but learning. (laughter)
AV: We sure learned a lot. We're engaged in a production process and then you are dependent on learning. But to musicians this is different. As an artist you musn't learn. An artist must or should be an obstructionist and a know-it-all. So if we have problems at all it's because we know something is impossible whilst the musicians still want it to be done. For instance: what we experience over and over is a kind of tribal war about the placing of the musicians.Ton likes it to be compact; so everybody, soloists, choir and orchestra all packed together in front of him. For us this is catastrophy. If, for example, we're recording a piece with choir, trumpets and timpanos it often happens that intruments and tripods get moved around untill they are all grouped around the little organ where Ton is conducting. With tears in our eyes we must explain them that this an impossible arrangement.
TM: What we definitely learned is that musicians are not to be allowed to listen to the recordings during the recording process. That is simply our job and it delays enourmously. The musicians have to spend all their time on actually making the best music.
AV: In fact the project has great similarity with the way one use used to work in Bach's time. Most of the pieces which are to be recorded are new, both to the singers, the musicians and the conductor. So shortly before the recording begins you use these "fresh" scores as a starting-point. The rehearsels take place in a relatively short span of time. Then a few concerts are done and in the mean time the recordings are made. This looks a lot like the situation in which Bach was. The only difference is that he only performed it once and that we record it. We can do things over to correct a few mistakes.
TM: You know what I think is hard about the Bach-cantatas? We always make good products which are very well received by the public, but you keep doing the same over and over. On top of that things tend to mingle: you're still working on the last mounting of CD-box 5 and meanwhile the recording of box 6 is in full process. You move from a perfectly mounted final result to a church where all still has to be invented. This is an incredibly hard struggle, because you constantly competing with youself. And it always has to be as perfect as the last box we've done, or preferably even better. We must not slacken in our efforts. It's a hard battle which gets harder and harder.
And then considering you still have a long way to go...
TM: Indeed, we now are producing box 7 and in the end there will be 22 boxes.
Does that mean you that you will not to be able to face it any more?
(in chorus): No, no notatall !!
TM: Still I think that when we're halfway the project it will be the toughest. After that we'll be looking foward again.
